Curse

Inde · Apr 24, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Please refrain from political debates. Thank you.

Studio Ghibli · Apr 24, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

While I'll certainly be the first to admit how discussion did range a little, as one of the posters did say, the political and economic situation of China is one of the issues behind bot-farming.

It wasn't one of the best discussions, no, but I still think it raised a lot of valid points about -why- bot-farming is there, and some real information behind bot-farming, as opposed to the misinformation some people are picking up in sensationalistic articles about the poor videogame sweatshop workers.

Inde · Apr 24, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Yes but flaming, calling people ignorant/idiots/etc is not essential to this thread. If the politcal discussion can not stop then this thread will be closed.

Wessels · Apr 24, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Here's my solution, and let me be the first to tell you that it's a very obvious one. They should just crack hard down on both sides, providers and consumers. And I mean HARD. Ban all involved accounts, by the thousand if that's what it takes. Monitor every IP address ever used to play a banned account and sets up a new account, and be quick out of the gate to smack them down again if they pick up their bad habits. Again and again and again until they give up. Who cares if they're Chinese, American, French or martians? Who cares about their living conditions? None of that should even come into the discussion. It's just a matter of ANet upholding their EULA.

If they do that ( even if it's possible from a technical standpoint,which it isn't ) it means the end of guild wars .You do realize each and every account used by pro-farmers does indeed represent revenue for A-net ?? You do realize there's aparently quite a number of folks buying gold ( = accounts= revenue ), else those companies wouldn't exist ??

Also : it will be very hard to enforce this bit of the EULA . It is against the EULA for me to purchase gold from the net but do you know what it would involve to "discover" I have done so ?? Say they used the amount of gold in storage as criteria .I could always say I sold a very rare item. The amount of monitoring that would have to be involved would be so expensive it would far outdo the damage ( or apparent damage ) caused by pro-farmers .

Technically and practically unworkable...

No ,the only way to solve it is - as you put in 1st paragraph- rethink the entire economical structure of the game and as you correctly pointed out : this won't happen . Thus ensuring the companies selling gold they'll remain in business for an indefinite period of time to come ...

shinja · Apr 24, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

As noted before, the wages these folks are paid is actually above what farm workers make out there, its not bad money, and its easy 'work'.

With regards to 12 hour days, I assure you plenty of US citizens work that as well, and around the world people in different industries do not enjoy an 8 hour day as a regular thing. Most people who are 'big shots' in their chosen career path work well over the 'standard' 8.

'Sweatshop like conditions' is insulting to people who -really- have horrible working conditions around the world. Its a propagana piece.

While I dont particularly care for the ...subculture of it I guess for lack of better word, at least in GW it affects people personally on a very small scale compared to say, Everquest. Instancing means we do not have to deal with camp stealing and a host of other worries associated with these folks.

Some games are quite successful in building their business model with considerations for this type of activity, check out Secondlife for an example.

There is little Anet can do to stop this kind of thing, the only thing WE the players can do is... dont purchase their items with real cash. They would not do it if there was not a market for it.

Fay Vert · Apr 24, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

It was a bit flamey, so respect to the mods

Though I am sure most readers were entertained, nobody was really offended, and there was some good stuff amongst the diatribe

Cjlr · Apr 24, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Ah, the newest guise of offsourcing.

Sensationalist dreck that pulls at your heartstrings and mourns the squalor of the poor sweatshop workers establishes no context whatsoever. A crappy job to us in [cultural] North America or Western Europe is by no means a crappy job in India, China, or Mexico. There, working conditions are far below the standards we accept (and demand) as "minimal" - hence, lower costs for operating there.

Having to pay workman's comp, pensions, high wages and the like to all the greedy schmoes down at the factory is after all expensive, and drives up overhead and consequently prices. We aren't willing to actually pay those prices, so... Get the Chinese to do it! They'll work for peanuts! Largely this refers to secondary industries, but to a larger and larger extent quaternary industries (dealing in information, as opposed to physical products) are also being relocated "offshore".

How does this have anything to do with farming bots? I'm getting to that. The "sweatshop" bots allow us - gamers - to evade the more repetitive or just plain boring portions of game and skip straight to the rewards.

Here's where it gets a little fuzzy. With no formal mathematical education, I will now attempt to model the reasons behind "ebaying". I warn you, I'm pulling numbers out my ass left and right. For now let's assume that your goal is in-game currency - 'g', for gold:

Obtain in-game = How much you want / your rate of earning (virtual income)
T-O = G / G/hour

Obtain via third party = cost of item in $ / your rate of earning (real income)
T-E = C / $/hour

Now we all know that playing video games is usually more fun than working. So divide each side by F, for fun factor. Presumably, this will be greater for obtaining in-game than working in order to pay for the ebaying, but you never know.

T-O = (G / G/hour) / fun
T-E = (C / $/hour) / fun

Then, throw in a risk factor. Ebaying is against the EULA, after all. If anyone actually read the EULA and translated the legalese, they'd know that. Or the people on the forums can tell you. So, toss in an 'r' for the Ebaying risk factor.

T-E = (C / $/hour) / fun * risk

Time for some made-up numbers! You want 200k. You can earn 4k/hour in-game. Third party sites offer 200k for $5. You make $10/hour working. Playing the game is five times as fun as your job. You have a 50% of getting your account banned. A lower number is better.

T-O = (200 / 4/hour) / 5
T-E = (5 / 10/hour) / 1 * 0.50

T-O = 10
T-E = 1/4
T-O : T-E = 10 : 1/4 = 40 : 1

So in that case you'd ebay. Oversimplified? Yeah, definately. And innacurate. But it's a rough idea. Very rough...

The point of all that? Not too much I can think of at the moment. But I had fun writing it, even if you didn't have fun reading it. So flame away, but be mindful of how long it took me to write (way too long, by the way).

EDIT: fixed a couple glaring typos. But I bet there's still some.
EDIT 2: saw Inde's warnings from earlier... *ducks*

Big Tony · Apr 24, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

All ebay gold-buyers are supporting slavery!

Studio Ghibli · Apr 24, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

.. an easier way to say what Cjilr tried to demonstrate is that, to some people, even their spare time is worth money, and it's simply more effective to feed the system than to waste that time.

I had a friend, a weight-trainer, who felt this way.

But, yeah, what he said.

Sensational dreck.

Saider maul · Apr 24, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

first off The argument is right on both sides.
They are chines farmers but 1 farmer can only make so much. thus they run AI. ( BOTS ). The ai is smart enough to follow a program with one error requiring the help of a true intellegance, The ai can't target the drops the enemy has left. so that 1 person is manning 5-6 stations,.. cleaning up after them. This is more like manufacturing and all workers are volintarily working there. true alot of small "work shops" as they like to call themselves did have long hours in poor living conditions. Most of that has changed and turned into a more corperate aspect of manufacturing gold.
I still see lil reason for concern. Why?
1: anet claims skill is rewarded vs time played.
2: anet claims the mods or elite items gained serve lil advantage over others.
3: being this said where will it make one persons game play better then anothers having enough gold to buy anything in the game.lol
I do not agree in this theory all though the added recharge or buffs gained can make the characters action/reaction and % casting success up to 38% better over anothers.
granted alot of collector items can do similar effects and get in the close ball park of DPS or DOT of the elite equiped character. It Will not be its equal in equal players hands.
Basically what i'm getting at is if gold makes no difference in the game to how well its played then why raise so much cain over people farming gold for those who chose to have it?
It can't be morals People condone selling tested junk unid items on here.
I say just get over the inevitable and play the game.

Mystic Memory · Apr 24, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

$250 US Dollars is not alot of money in China...

1 USD roughly is 8 Yuan.
Many people in China make 3000 Yuan a month (yes I know, in American standards that is lower than a McDonalds Worker, but price for many things in china is cheaper as well i.e. 1 yuan for a call as opposed to 25 or 50cents a call)

And especially 12 hours a day...
its because outside of the cities some of the country people are very poor.

But I dont think ANET really has a way to stop this.

Haggard · Apr 24, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overnite

Ho my, I'm so buying one ! What do they eat ?

Three bowls a day.

Studio Ghibli · Apr 24, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Mystic Memory,

Could you please identify where you're citing this information from? My sources show me that the lower-class average income is X>1000$, and that the three-thousand dollar number being used is a pretty decent sum of money, especially for the work involved.

It's not rich, no, but it's enough to live semi-decently.

- edit -

Here are my updated numbers from 2004 figures:

Average per capita income for the richest group was 29,600 yuan (US$3,600) last year.

But the figure for the poorest 20 per cent was only 7,400 (US$890) yuan.

A survey conducted by the local statistics bureau among 2,000 urban families in Beijing showed that the overall average per capita income of Beijing's residents was 15,600 yuan (US$1,900) last year, 12.6 per cent higher than in 2003.

Riceboi · Apr 24, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggard

Three bowls a day.

OMGZ!!! Funniest thing evAr!!!! Good thing I wasn't eating or drinking anything!
hahhahahaah

Haggard · Apr 24, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I'm glad I made someone's day.

On a more serious note, I can barely stand farming all day for my own in-game benefit.. imagine doing it as a job..

LoKi Foxfire · Apr 24, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

If a large majority of these gold farmers are from China why not just ban the entire nation from playing the game? Without going into political analysis of China, if they are basically using what amounts to slave labor inside the game why not just block the entire country from logging in?

Then again, proxies do wonders against these types of things.

Diablo™ · Apr 25, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoKi Foxfire

If a large majority of these gold farmers are from China why not just ban the entire nation from playing the game?

Thats gonna cause a whole lot more trouble than for what it was worth.

Studio Ghibli · Apr 25, 2006, 12:30 AM // 00:30

.. because it doesn't amount to slave labor.

To us, it seems that way. To us, the pay seem awful. To us, the concept of a sweatshop is awful.

But -VIDEOGAME- sweatshops are not that bad.

They make somewhere in the ballpark of three-thousand dollars/year. If my numbers are correct, that's a pretty semi-comfortable number for a Chinese urbanite, even more considering (1) the alternatives (2) and what's involved.

The idea of a sweatshop conjures up something awful, children slaving over whatever their craft might be, poor pay, bad food, and men with guns watching their every move.

These sweatshops are real.

Do not belitte the plight of those poor folk involved in those sweatshops by accepting the comparison between those and videogame sweatshops--which are twenty-something Chinese people who either have a lot of free-time on their hands or enjoy playing videogames.

That having been said, the reason they simply can't ban an entire country is because (1) that isn't fair

(2) and they'd simply, as you pointed out, utilize proxies. In fact, I think spot bans are circumvented in that particular manner.

Want an easy way to beat farming? ;P

THIS IS A SUGGESTION THAT I DO NOT CONDONE. BUT I BET IT WOULD WORK. :P

Legalize what people are dealing with illicitly.

While I don't like the idea of it, it'd work. Just have Anet start selling pre-builts and monies and various randoms for real cash. Just have the price high enough to not be common but low enough to undercut the farmers.

It's, in essence, what people I know say to do about the drug problem. Legalize drugs. Set standards on it. Set a decent price on it.

- edit -

Beyond that, just build a better mousetrap?

I'm not entirely sure why people farm for Guild Wars. There's no real uberitem in the typical sense. No Sword of Dragonslaying +5 or anything. Just various cool-looking items which provide no real gameplay bonus besides making you look cool.

Gli · Apr 25, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Studio Ghibli

I'm not entirely sure why people farm for Guild Wars. There's no real uberitem in the typical sense. No Sword of Dragonslaying +5 or anything. Just various cool-looking items which provide no real gameplay bonus besides making you look cool.

Not entirely true. I'm sure at least some of the eBay gold buyers have done so with the intention of buying a 700,000 gold HoD sword.

Studio Ghibli · Apr 25, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

I stand corrected.